Nick and AO - Thanks for the revealing posts. I guess that you guys have more or less communicated your views before - but they seemed nebulous to an absolutist truth seeker such as myself. It seems that many (most?) on this forum ascribe to your type of world-view (and yes, Jeremy, you too - your last post ****ed me off - thus the unnecessary slight).

AO - Your point is well taken. Of course you don't have to be Christian to be moral. And - being a Christian doesn't make you moral. However, society needs to define some base morality in which to function as Nick points out.

In regards to self-righteousness, maybe it would help you to see it from a Christian insider's view - - I hear you! Self-righteousness is annoying to see in anyone. I think that younger, effusive Christians sometimes proclaim judgment on people or beliefs based upon (limited?) Biblical principles. Turn or burn messages can stir up a conversation. As you get older, you realize how little you know, and then you truly don't judge.

I can also see where a Christian's reliance on God as the ultimate judge is annoying when you don't believe in him. What can I say? Most Christians' quest for truth is a commitment to accepting that truth whether they like it or not. The concept of judgment is not really something that Christians look forward to. However, God may not be the hard ass that he's been sold as -- or he may be harder! The point is - a Christian believes in God and you don't - and that is about it. We don't know how God's going to judge, thus we shouldn't take it upon ourselves to do it. Any self-righteousness that you've experienced from Christians is unchristian-like.

While studying the history of the Christian Church (not necessarily the Catholic Church), I'm often struck by misperceived (from my viewpoint) world-views that were once commonly held. Similarly, some of those probably exist today, so we keep on searching and refining. Christians are still trying to figure things out, just like everyone else. We just do it with a fundamental belief that God exists and has revealed (some of) himself.

One more note on self-righteousness - - Many Christians are some of the most guilt-ridden people in existence. I'm kind of one of them. You even have to be concerned with your thoughts! Guilt-ridden people in general are prone to projecting. This could, of course, come across as judgmentalism. Guilt-ridden people, however, don't generally think of themselves as superior to others.

Regarding AO's point about an individual coming to conclusions on his own - I believe this to be a human problem. You have people from all walks of life that don't come up with individual, well-thought-out value systems. I know all types of shallow people.