** bump **

is this helping?

Nick and AO - Thanks for the revealing posts. I guess that you guys have more or less communicated your views before - but they seemed nebulous to an absolutist truth seeker such as myself. It seems that many (most?) on this forum ascribe to your type of world-view (and yes, Jeremy, you too - your last post ****ed me off - thus the unnecessary slight).

AO - Your point is well taken. Of course you don't have to be Christian to be moral. And - being a Christian doesn't make you moral. However, society needs to define some base morality in which to function as Nick points out.

In regards to self-righteousness, maybe it would help you to see it from a Christian insider's view - - I hear you! Self-righteousness is annoying to see in anyone. I think that younger, effusive Christians sometimes proclaim judgment on people or beliefs based upon (limited?) Biblical principles. Turn or burn messages can stir up a conversation. As you get older, you realize how little you know, and then you truly don't judge.

I can also see where a Christian's reliance on God as the ultimate judge is annoying when you don't believe in him. What can I say? Most Christians' quest for truth is a commitment to accepting that truth whether they like it or not. The concept of judgment is not really something that Christians look forward to. However, God may not be the hard ass that he's been sold as -- or he may be harder! The point is - a Christian believes in God and you don't - and that is about it. We don't know how God's going to judge, thus we shouldn't take it upon ourselves to do it. Any self-righteousness that you've experienced from Christians is unchristian-like.

While studying the history of the Christian Church (not necessarily the Catholic Church), I'm often struck by misperceived (from my viewpoint) world-views that were once commonly held. Similarly, some of those probably exist today, so we keep on searching and refining. Christians are still trying to figure things out, just like everyone else. We just do it with a fundamental belief that God exists and has revealed (some of) himself.

One more note on self-righteousness - - Many Christians are some of the most guilt-ridden people in existence. I'm kind of one of them. You even have to be concerned with your thoughts! Guilt-ridden people in general are prone to projecting. This could, of course, come across as judgmentalism. Guilt-ridden people, however, don't generally think of themselves as superior to others.

Regarding AO's point about an individual coming to conclusions on his own - I believe this to be a human problem. You have people from all walks of life that don't come up with individual, well-thought-out value systems. I know all types of shallow people.

You know, our entire Western society has a Judeo-Christian heritage. There are something like 240 million Christians in the U.S. Within Christianity there are many denominations. Some people are much more religious than others.

It's not like I'm going to sit here and say that all Christians are right-wing fundamentalists, they all think they're right and everyone else is wrong, they all think mankind is 6000 years old, or any other such ridiculous thing. My disagreements are very specific and don't apply to the entire religion!

I thought that went without saying.

My post wasn't written just to you. I detect an annoyance with Christianity from many on this board - and it's perceived self righteousness seems to be highest on the list.

Part of it seems to be that the self-righteous of all sides are the loudest. Just look at American politics--the "liberal left" and the "conservative right" are the only ones we hear about on the news--where is the outspoken voice of the "moderate middle"?

Most people have characteristics of both, but the moderates aren't the ones screaming. As Zum would say, the ones drinking the Kool-Aid (both flavors) are the loudest in America right now, but that doesn't make either one the majority.

I agree. However, I will concede that I've seen a large amount of newer, usually younger Christians express their new-found belief with little sensitivity, and often with little sense. I see it as kind of a pattern.

Nick - I've been thinking about this while at work, and I developed a theory - Christianity is about Jesus, and it proclaims he is the way. Thus, I think that you do have a disagreement that applies to the whole religion. Am I right?

Nevermind - I just noticed that you already addressed this.

I don't believe in a messiah, and I'm not Christian. But that doesn't mean I have a disagreement with it, just that I have a different orientation - a distinction that many Christian fundamentalists simply can't accept.

The spirit of what Christ taught - not the stuff in the Bible that's clearly a reflection of the social mores of the day, but the basic values- I agree with entirely.

Jesus, if he did actually exist, was a warm compassionate person. But to proclaim that you are the son of god puts him in the "certified" catagory. But then again, as my dad said, it may not have been what he said but what someone said about him, that becamse lore and passed on thru generations.

This all comes back to evolution, which is at odds with the bible. Jesus did NOT write the bible, OK? it was written hundreds of years later after his death, by some lawyers. A human being wrote the bible, not a god.

Christianity is under the gun these days because of the distructive impact it's having on our culture, hense Geroge Bush, which was put into office to f-up this country by the christians. And their moronic world view. Face it, you've been brain washed. Hopefully in this lifetime you'll realize there is spirtuality without the bible.

To what?