Interesting. It could partially explain why the human race guts each other with such ease. I'm sure escape clauses like this exist in many, if not all religions. And I guess they trump "Thou shalt not kill".

I hear you. Again I will say - Christianity is a quest for truth, and some of that truth you may not like, and of course, some of it you will not understand.

Consider this - God has a nature and a set of laws that he adheres to just because of who he is. These will dictate what he does, not necessarily common sense as we see it. Perfection is a standard that we can't relate to.

And again - God is the judge.

Actually, this conundrum is addressed in the bible. I think people usually kill without fully considering the consequences.

Dorkus, I see your points and personally won't hold your feet over the fire for your beliefs. That, to me, is exactly the problem. While not a "practicing" Christian, my faith is strongly defined, my connection to God unquestionable. And when a group of people (in this conversation, hardcore Christians) attempt to shake my faith by imposing their will or political/social influence, I cannot help but feel the same resentment that you feel when your faith is questioned. The difference is that regardless of my socio-political/religious affiliation, I am very willing to let you believe whatever you like regarding evolution, the role of Christ in eternal life, what church you'd like to attend, how you pray, what you eat, what you wear... Very unfortunately for the vast majority of Christians, the political alliance that was formed between the power wielding extreme right and the Republican party has backfired - instead of promoting the right wing radical agenda, it has put it under close scrutiny and found it both lacking and its hyprocracy exposed. For many, I imagine, it has reduced the very private and personal act of worship and prayer to a very public political stance (ie, you are either for or against abortion, you are either for or against prayer in school). My point is that this doesn't serve anyone - as expressed by Dorkus (who's point of view, while not shared, I truly respect) who felt the need to state that he was about to be ridiculed.

In a perfect world, we chose to determine what works for us - not was is determined by a religious/political agenda. We explore and learn from each other, our lives enriched by our interactions with those who think differently than us. Our children are taught to embrace and accept the fundamental differences between people, and to celebrate those differences.

If you believe that Christ is the way, that's truly great. If you cannot recognize that you are being manipulated by a political party, bent on gaining power by attempting to instill fear into the thinking Christian community, then thats a shame. But I still respect your right to feel and worship as you wish.

Well put, Glenn.

Dorkus, where my rhetorical question is going is that I'm very much against capital punishment. Yet who are the most fervent supporters of executions? Right-wing Christians.

The out Arnold Blackeggs used before giving the go-ahead to execute Stanley Tookie Williams was "he obviously isn't repentant." That to me is so confused as to be beyond ludicrous.

But anyway: no, you can't atone anyone back to life. You can see the error of your ways and feel bad for what you've done, but many actions are irreversible.

And I've repeatedly stated my objection to the idea in any religion that the only way is my way. That to me is an obviously fatal flaw. Anyone who believes they're right and nobody else is - regardless of whether it's what the Bible or any book or any person says - is a first-class idiot.

Re: atoning - by the way, that's a perfect example of what I mean about the spirit of what Christ taught. The idea that regardless of what you've done in the past, you're here and you have to look forward…that's great. And since you can't just let it all go with a snap of the finger, the ritual of letting it go (whether it's confession or whatever) is probably a good idea.

It's when you take all that literally and then take the next short step that it's a big problem.

I figured that a Christian would at least know the source of his ideas, Dorkus, just as any scientist must study Plato, Euclid, Leonardo, Newton, Huygens, Faraday, Einstein, and become aware of the interrelatedness of their ideas. If you believe that the bible you read in church today is a direct translation of God's words, you're sorely uninformed:

Here\'s one thorough examination of the history of Christianity.

And here\'s one on the Bible itself.

As Glenn, Nick, and others are saying, all people are free to pursue their own beliefs. My point is that if you truly believe in God then you should seek out all knowledge with the hope of becoming closer to it instead of doubting any evidence which you fear.

If the bible is erroneous, and false, that doesn't make you a bad person--it just means that, like I've been saying all along, everyone deals with the unknown in different ways. You should explore it, and enjoy it, instead of feeling persecuted.

edit: and Nick, I read about that Maya image as well...amazing. In their mythology, a great god impaled his penis, and let its blood flow out, thus creating the world. "Let there be light" is a bit more PG-13, don't you think?

Hi Glenn. I'm having a hard time telling if your points are directed at me, or at the Christian community as a whole.

I entered this conversation in an attempt to shed real light on some issues, to balance out the loudest and more fluent in the group. My agenda has been apolitical - - I wanted to stay focused on what I see to be flaws in mainstream thinking regarding evolution, and present the creationist side in a less wacky way. Perhaps we could understand each other better and gain some respect for each other.

However, it never fails - the conversation somehow turns to "Sure, I respect what you believe, you can believe whatever BS you want, but what about that friggin' extreme right? They're manipulating you, and they want to manipulate me." etc, etc. There is a deep rooted (resentment / hatred / irritation / etc) with "the Right." But I guess I should expect this, it is the favorite topic on this forum (I've been lurking here for years).

I'm not even sure where I sit in the 'middle to extreme right" spectrum. I don't believe that I'm unduly influenced by politicians or TV evangelists. I have beliefs on issues, and many of them are connected to my Christian view of the world. I think that they would have to be discussed one by one. And you know what? I'm really clueless. I'm not sure which issues are the ones that affect or bug you the most.

I hope no one thinks that I'm slamming them for their belief. I'm trying to be transparent in the hopes that others will be too. I recognize that what is gospel to one is silly to another. We all have some unfounded beliefs - and maybe they should be questioned. Really, I'm not offended when people (legitimately) question my faith. If I can't stand up to some questions, then what good is it?

And Nick, yes I saw where you were going - more OT. It's funny that I'm somewhat the spokesman for Right Wing Christians now. As far as capital punishment, if you want my opinion, I vascillate. As far as Tookie, I think that the anti-capital-punishment crowd chose the wrong figure. Despite overwhelming evidence, he maintained his innocence. So he obviously wasn't repentant.

And Nick, I agree that the part where I'm right and you're wrong sucks. However if something is true, it is true. This means Muslims could be right, and I could be wrong. Or you could be right and I could be wrong. Or may nobody is right. Or...

Two opposing viewpoints cannot both be right. At least in this universe

Nick, I'm dense. What's the next short step?