Good one, Glenn
Nick, sounds like you are a little resentful of Bush being in office!! I hope you understand that it's a big stretch to say that Bush directly caused the deaths of U.S. troops....

The net of it is, neither the republicans or the democrats are in Iraq at the moment. All of us are, and all of us have to face the consequences and finish it right....also, the outcome is still a question mark. If Iraq ultimately becomes a self-sufficient democracy, it could be a beacon for the entire middle east, which is something that's desperately needed.

I was lucky enough to avoid Vietnam {see my long winded post}
http://www.audiotalkback.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005772#000009

However, I have some friends that served and I've heard all the stories.
One common practice was to blindfold an NVC prisoner, tie his hands behind his back, load him up on a helicopter. They'd fly that puppy a ways and tell the prisoner,
"talk or else we're going to shove you out the door."
On the funny side... because the copter had been flying around, not known to the blindfolded prisoner was, the pilot had positioned the copter three... four feet off the ground.
What's not so funny is, along the way, more than several VC that didn't spew or didn't know anything anyway, died due to fright when they were shoved out the door.

This is the kind of stuff that happens during war time. It does however happen more frequently when politicians begin to panic in their quest for information to dig themselves out a deep hole {as they have been and are now}. And you can bet your DA-7 {or other} anyone who's anyone knew what was going on as far as prisoner abuse. That's the real pity ... there always has to be "fall guys"... Inconsequential, disposable peons {in this case soldiers following orders} that take the rap when the real criminals are the current gutless administration and the chiefs of staff. The same folks that got us all into this mess... the ones you have to know OK'd this form of interrogation. The ones who handed their inside/corporate buddy's the lucrative contracts for support services in Iraq and to clean up the mess over there. The corporations that are bilking us due to {supposed} continual cost overruns and for non existent services and materials. Everyone involved here is nothing but a despicable stinky skunk!
Here's one last little tidbit.
Not too long ago, there was an interesting but newsworthy rumor {it was reported several times} that Osama had been captured near or on the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Then nada {MUZZLE}.
What a surprise it'll be when election week arrives and suddenly Osama appears on our door step {dead or alive and count up the votes}... that'd be a real shocker, wouldn't it??
Brent

Nick, now who's using flawed logic?! People who vote for Bush are NOT otherwise perfectly reasonable people! Why do you wish to make excuses them?!

Nick, I accept the responsibility for voting for the best man! Thank you!
The fact that you acknowledge he was the best candidate in the last election (and this one as well) not vote for him, and then call him a jackass is insane! My vote wasn't wasted. This is such a great example of people knowing exactly what is right, and then not doing it! We all have to take responsibility and WE GET TO unlike most of rest of the world.

C'mon! Just imagine what it would feel like to have ANY guy named Ralph as President!

"Sooner or later, you gotta listen to Ralph Nader. I don't wanna cause a fuss, but fast cars are so dangerous...."

--Pete Shelley

No, only if he lied about it under oath while being investigated for sexually assaulting another woman.
People always seem to forget that part.

nonsense. No more than Gore was trying to do anyway.
How 'bout them democrats in Wisconcin who were handing out smokes to homeless folks for voting Gore.
NICE! And then the dude hires a DALEY to help him sort out the little election fiasco.
LOL.. do you folks know how notorious the daleys are for stealing elections? I think pappa daley is the guy who had dead people voting for him in chicago.
dont hand me the whiney "bush stole the election" BS. becuase thats what it is. Bush is no more or less of a snake than Gore, or any other democrat or republican for that matter.
They have all sold us out.


I beg to differ. His predecessor has plenty evil.

Agreed. as much of a stretch as it is to accuse Clinton of causing the deaths of US troops in Yugoslavia. Or Somalia. Or citizens in New York.

Im not buying the "they were just following orders" BS. They sure looked like they were having a good time. And they were stupid enough to take pictures of it.
If higher ups were ordering them to do this they would have been smart enough to say "Hey.. leave the polaroid at home."

No, your vote was for Bush. Congratulations, you won.

And I absolutely do not acknowledge that Nader was the best candidate. The fact that he didn't drop out when he saw that Bush was going to win proves that he lacked the stature to be president.

That's the point: having good ideas is a tiny part of being a good leader. Any fool can be right. So what if you're right. The country is on a rapid march to hell because George Bush is in office. It wouldn't have been if Gore had won. Plain and simple.

Fiery (was it you who said this? sorry if not), I hold George Bush and his insane posse directly responsible for leading us into Iraq. We would not be there if Gore had won. Gore did not have that as part of his agenda before he was elected, as Bush did, Gore is not a religious zealot of the far right (I HATE the Christian right, by the way, or at least I hate their arrogant agenda...which is neither Christian nor right, as the bumper stickers say), and Gore wouldn't have used the 9/11 tragedy + since-proven lies to get us there.

And I'd like to know what's going to change in Iraq? What are we "working" toward? How are we going to install a democracy that shows the Middle East how to be? And what basis is there for thinking that other countries would follow suit if that did happen? All that's happening is that the situation is deteriorating. What's going to happen differently in the future? More shooting and bombing? Who are you going to "defeat?"

When are people going to wake up and stop parroting the idiotic bull**** they're told to parrot?

And it was five C U Next Tuesdays on the Supreme Court who stole the election, by the way. Bush won by one vote, as I said.

We should re-elect Gore!

Nick, you raise good questions. Take comfort in the fact that we are able to criticize our own government. As often as it's been said, other people simply don't have that right.

The reason that so many other countries criticize our government (not just Bush policies, etc., the U.S. in general...)is that they aren't allowed to criticize their own governments (which are often in a much worse state than we are).

I'm not saying we're the right ones to "fix it", but there have been enough screws loose in the middle east to take the whole world off track for some time.....Don't expect them to solve their own problems anytime soon.