gregk wrote: Exactly. If being gay really went against nature, then nature wouldn't allow it. If God is this all-powerful being, then wouldn't it be simpler for "Him" to eliminate all homosexuality? Why doesn't "He" stop world conflict or world hunger? It's not because He won't, it's because he can't. The answer I often hear to those questions is, "There must be a reason...", "God has His reasons. We just don't understand them right now" or "Everything happens for a reason...", etc. I think I know the reason - it's because God is not this omnipotent, omnipresent being. The concept of God was a construction of the human mind in an effort to understand what it could not explain. The concept of God and the fear of Him was used as a social and moral control - to give a reason for people to refrain from doing bad things. The concept of God was used to give and maintain hope to an oppressed people, the Jews, when their future was uncertain.

I once feared God because I was told that I should. I no longer fear God because now I know better and I understand Him for what He really is. I can accept the concept of "God" if it means what makes things the way they are, why the laws of physics are as such, etc., but not as an all-powerful being.

So though I'm not gay, I don't have a problem with them getting married if that's what they really want. I'll admit I'm not 100% comfortable with it but I'm okay with it. Mogandus wrote, "I don't dig flamboyant, girlie-like little Fags." Neither do I, but I don't dig overly-flamboyant straight people either. There's a difference between disliking someone's personality trait and disliking their sexual orientation.

Nick,
I don't care how you interpret what I wrote, but, I do care if you spin it.

I mean what I say, and I say what I mean. Take it at face value.

Please do not presume to speak on my behalf again.

Shane, you can say whatever you mean and mean whatever you say, but I don't think Nick was trying to "spin" anything at all. Nick's right in a sense. According to the dictionary, values are simply beliefs. It's not a LACK of values because everyone has values, but everyone values something different. I'm sure that Muslims don't share all the same values as Christians but they still have them. Same with gays.

I think anyone who wants to get married should be able to in this "free" country. I don't know about letting close minded morons have children though.

I've little to add to this debate as most points are well covered by other posters.
If it comes to a vote I'll cast mine for allowing love to be consecrated between any two consenting humans. It's in too short of supply these days to deny the expression of it to anyone.
My personal belief is that we fare better (as individuals and as a society) by expanding our personal acceptance of others than by standing in judgment of them.
Hopi
....fearing that I become my enemy in the instance that I preach..................

Nick ...Religion is something you're brought up with,
or you pick one and follow it, or you decide to believe in; it requires *faith*,
which by definition means you decide to believe it even though it's not
something you can reach out and touch.

Exactly - faith. One impression I get from reading these posts is that most of us have thought about the big question of an afterlife anyway. I think a person's heart tells him that there is something, someone way bigger than we mere humans.

As far as God allowing people to do bad things - it's called free will and we have it. It is a choice, faith and I've got to believe in God, in Jesus and what he did for me because of my sin. And I will hold onto that hope, thank you.

A thread like this isn't going to convince anyone to change his views. If we are really smart we won't let it turn anyone against anyone else either. I don't hate gays and I respect the people here who have opinions different than mine.
carl

(Stepping gingerly into the fray... thought this might be of some interest)

Why Gay Marriage Should Be Banned

1. Homosexuality is not natural, much like face lifts, eyeglasses, Viagra, and birth control.

2. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we have only one religion in America.

3. Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents raise only straight children.

4. Heterosexual marriages are valid because they produce children. Infertile couples and old people can't legally get married or stay married because the world needs more children.

5. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.

6. Gay marriage should be decided by the legislatures, not the courts, because the majority-elected legislatures historically have done such a fine job of protecting the rights of minorities.

7. Civil unions, providing most of the same benefits as marriage but with a
different name, are better, because a "separate but equal" institution is always constitutional. Separate schools for African Americans worked just
as well as separate marriages for gays and lesbians will.

8. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal
standing and can sign a marriage contract.

9. Straight marriage will be less meaningful, since Britney Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage was awfully meaningful, and so was Newt Gingrich's "divorce her when she's dying" marriage.

10. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society. We could never adapt to new social norms because we haven't adapted to cars or longer lifespans, TV or African American governors.

11. Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why single parents and divorced people are forbidden to raise children.

12. Heterosexual marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all; women are still property, Blacks still can't marry Whites, and divorce is still illegal.

(Quietly sneaking out the back door)

Thank you. Well put.

And how right Glenn is!

Shane, is my interpretation of what you said wrong? Someone who doesn't think gay marriage is immoral wouldn't bring up morality when they're talking about it, it seems to me. I find that immoral - and, for that matter, un-Christian, from my limited understanding of Christianity. It's immoral for you, but other people consider it beautiful. Gay people fall in and out of love just like heterosexual people.

Carl, consider what you know in your heart. Now consider that other people know different things in their hearts just as strongly.

I no longer believe in a God that gives us free will and freedom of choice as long as we don't use it, or use it only in specifically "approved" ways.
I no longer believe in a God that needs me (or anyone else) to worship or fear him/her.
I no longer believe in a God that is punishing, or that hell even exists.

I am so much happier!

I never have and never will believe in George Bush!

My last post: I really don't like Fags! All Homos and Lesbians should be shipped to the Falkland Islands where they will stay forever. A monthly tally will be done to see how many babies are born,hense 0 population growth. Lesbians and Homos will have to turn straight long enough to procreate. Therefore, the theory that gays are gays forever will be proven false. They are all animals....let them lose their souls.