Based on the changing lax attitudes towards gays in this country, is it any wonder the Bin Ladens of the world want to attack us? You can't turn on the TV anymore without seeing some show about gays. Right now it is usually in a joking manner, but give it time. Do I hate gays? No, but I don't want them flaunting it front of my impressionable children either. [/QB][/QUOTE]


That's it... I can no longer open this post.

It's kind of a cliche in Canada that Americans are this terrified of everything and believe their propaganda but I don't want to believe that but, wow, what a moron.

Give it some time. I should have made it more clear. That is one issue. I know US is upsetting alot of Middle Eastern countires by placing military in their countries, so obviously there are many reasons why Bin Laden and company hate us, but remember, they are of a very strict religious conviction, which is a core driving factor. This is just one more issue to drive them to attack us, one more nail in the coffin.

And I'm not a moron. My IQ is higher than that. Sorry, I was raised in a conservative town and a conservative family. I've known gay's and at least once they expressed interest in 'gettin to know me better'. I've had gay strangers walk up to me and ask to go have a cup of coffee. I've had gays ogle me in the check out stand at the local supermaket. I don't appreciate the attention. How do I know they were gay? I just got a sick feeling by how they approached me.

Or maybe you had a sick feeling from the fact that you kinda liked it.

Oh yeah..... Coffee today, german shepherds tomorrow. I've seen it happen again and again.

This quote is the basis of all the anti-gay rhetoric here. It's all about FEAR. Obviously, you've never had a gay friend, buisiness relation or even a conversation with one or you'd find this nonsense about breaking down the fiber of society as preposterous as it truly is.

Ha... holy cow, I'm away for a couple days and miss this?

I played for almost 20 years on the road. Played with blacks, honkys, japs, indians, jews, lesbos, gay, mexican... Gosh, I know I left a few breeds out.
Playing for a living gives one about the best possible liberal education you could ever get. You learn when people seem to be different, yet there's an honest attempt at understanding their differences, the chances are good you're in the process of making one of the best life long friends you'll ever have.

One female singer I worked in a band with during the middle 80s.. who happened to go the other way, the subject came up one time of why she was as she was.
She was continually molested by her grand Daddy until she was about 14. Actually, as I knew her quite well by that point, I almost had to leave the room and hug the toilet. I mean.. for any of you gay bashers here.. can you picture a small girl being "done" by an old man?
Can you also picture WHY her sexual preference may be other than what your narrow little minds consider being normal?
You see, people are also different for different reasons. You can no sooner put them in one group by sexual preference than I could say, Christianity is the primary reason for every major war since BC turned to AD {although there's evidence that would suggest the later statement is basically true.}
So... if it was up to you, you'd say "she doesn't deserve to be happy because she's queer." Or you'd say, "gosh... she needs to be institutionalized so she becomes normal." Or you'd say "honey... hide the kids away, here comes that weird queer bitch again."
What's very interesting about a narrow mind, generally anyone that has one, also has a closet chock full of their own skeletons. Like peeking at kiddie porn after the kids have gone to sleep hehehe.
Brent p.s. for any of you gay bashing supremacists out there, I married a Jew.
Because there's some misinformation about Jewish folk, I wanted to fill you in as you may find it astonishing. They all don't have hooked noses.

It applies only philosophically, and not "practically," as we you have correctly observed.

Shane's response was purely philosophical, in response to the purely philosophical assertion that all people should "live and let live."

As an absolute, with no other qualifications, a society that ONLY pursues "live and let live" ultimately equals anarchy.

It's a safe bet that anyone who says - as a matter of conversational expediency - that we should just "live and let live" and have no other societal constraints, would at least MODIFY the assertion, when faced with the prospect of a society where there are no speed limits, property protections, zoning laws, etc., etc. or restrictions on behavior of ANY kind (short of cold-blooded murder).

So, entering this debate and making a point based on the assertion that American society is based ONLY on the premise of "live and let live" - or some equally loose structure - is philosophically incorrect. If that were TRULY the only controlling rule, it would lead to many results that a LOT of people (read: a handy majority) would find undesireable.

That was Shane's point, as I took it.

You are largely correct (although I'm not sure I agree with the "libertarian vs. societal controls" distinction).

And the idea of gay marriage is one of those that falls nicely into that "gray area" of "some control" and "different values."

One side of the debate can support the idea and say: "Gay marriage is just NOT the type of behavior that, if condoned by society, will ultimately lead to babies being raped and maimed in the streets. It's fine."

The other side of the argument can (if they want to remain somewhat moderate) oppose the idea and say: "Gay marriage may not, in and of itself, lead to babies being raped and maimed in the streets, but it is another step towards moral relativism, which moves in that direction. Let's stop that progression now."

At the end of the day, your postion on the debate comes down to:
1) Where YOU would draw the line,
2) If you think a line can be drawn after this, and
3) If you think society/the government can MAINTAIN "the line" (either yours, or someone else's).

I apologize for the use of the word "misguided." All I meant to say was, your restatement missed the essence Shane's point, which has now, I hope, been clarified in numerous posts above.

I did NOT mean to imply that YOU or your motives are "misguided," in any way.


Your post leaves me with another philosophical question, however.

How does one resolve the apparent contradiction between the statement:
And the immediately preceding assertion:

I certainly could be missing something, but wouldn't your second statement REALLY be:

"A case of civil disobedience that's 'totally justified' according to my personal standards,"???

Or, is it your assertion that ALL of society shares the standard that ALL "civil disobedience" is "totally justified" in all circumstances?

That would be news to me, if it is the case.

I really don't know. I'm thinking there may just BE two sides to the issue, after all...

Knife, it's possible to justify anything and make any argument you want. But that doesn't mean every argument is rational, no matter how many people choose to believe it.

There's no rational argument to say that gay marriage is going to have *any* effect on anyone else; every one we've read here - and I think they've all been made - is based on faulty thinking: today gayness, tomorrow pedophilia; today gay marriage, tomorrow bestiality; this will turn my kids gay; these people don't have to be gay, they just like it; the law is the law, and it's right because the lowe is fer pertektshun of the poieepull; whatever.

This has nothing to do with anarchy, of course. The reason people are against gay marriage is that they don't like it or approve of it, for whatever reason. All the justifications are then invented to support that. And they're all wrong and - yes, in my opinion - illegal.

And then there's John Gee. JOHN, YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR MIND! WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?! :p

92 posts in one thread - and most of them mine! Is this a record?

Jeremy, you're forgetting about cloning, bro! Invest you money in those companies who are positioning themselves for this eventuality. You (or your kids) will be sittin' pretty!