That is EXACTLY what I have been talking about ... I'd like to see more about technique of putting the mix together instead of how to create new tracks and computer enhance it. What are the approaches to making something that you have to work with ... work.

I do often use a chorus and short delay for fixing really bad vocals in a live situation .... blurring the sharp edges takes the attention away from pitch issues usually. If all else fails, bury the high end of it under another instrument. It is harder to hear pitch in the lower frequencies, so it usually helps out.

Of course, if it's just a bar band or someone that's pissed me off, let the off tune shine through

Thanks Andrew. Thanks for the info too Dan. That stuff sounds good.

I agree too Joe. But we're dealing with so many closely interrelated issues. The musical merit/construction/production of the song at hand and the mix of it.
What Justin put up for us, wasn't what I'd call a completed song. The idea was surely there, but running time was way too long, didn't have nearly enough counterpoint to support it and needed some molding as far as song form.

If you guys have followed this thru from the beginning, notice how the mixes use effects to cover the lack of all the above. Perfectly natural thing to do too and we've all felt compelled to do that from time to time.
But what a few did, was go back to the beginning at the song level... where {normally} this should have started in the first place. What was missing, was the artist's input and "new" performance after the fact. Missing because it was impossible, of course. And to quite an extent, things suffer in the end because of that. In the case of these adjustments in Justin's tune, they would have completely changed the attitude of the vocal performance. Changed the function of the acoustic guitar... on and on.
Then... you actually have something satisfying and fun to mix. And something to discuss, I'll add.
If nothing else, I think this thread has shown the song is the most important thing. If the song "ain't" happening, no amount of mixing will ever fix it.
Brent

Yes, Jeff. I find the URS Neve very useful and I use it a lot. If you have an ilok you can run their demos. Haven't tried the Massenburg.

I should mention that I only used the smallest amount of chorusing on the vocal. More of a harmonizer effect.

Yes Brent's exactly right. The contest started because of a light-hearted quible between Nick and Jeremy over who could do a better job mixing. I thought it'd be fun to post some "raw" tracks and see what people could do with them. What Brent did is really what I had in mind -- a demonstration of mixing and, yes, editing in a DAW that we could all learn from. I mean, when I think of the how enabling this technology has become compared to years ago, I'm still blown away. These tools, namely the computer, have reshaped the way we approach the task and the creativity. I think what Brent did is very musical but there is also science behind it. Did I have a country-pop version in mind when I wrote the song? No. But this is what makes it fun. The endless possibilities music and technology provide us.

The idea that bugs me the most is the artist relying on the engineer to fix everything, the engineer should have the ability to fix minor issues and not have to fix everything. Justin gave nothing but raw 'crap' tracks, wouldn't retrack any vocals, didn't bother to fix the garbage drum tracks and the bass lines were off. Brent may get some pleasure from acknowlegements for his contribution but what he has done with the song could have been done with a lead sheet and studio musicians.

I always get these musicians who go up onstage, get paid the upwards of $5k a show and all they do is adlib to their prerecorded cd. whoopty doo..

From my stand point, mixing a great song starts from the tracking process.

Yeah but it's like anything else. Maybe those were the best tracks I could do at the time. Sure I could do better but we can always do better. I think it's a collaboration. I don't think Brent made something bad sound good, I think he made something good, sound better. That's precisely an engineer's job. Would the song have turned out better if Brent was here in Oregon (or I was there in Michigan) to track. Probably. But we have this thing called the internet that makes this collaboration possible. Think of it. You can now do business worldwide whereas before you were limited to your local area.

Exactly my point. We have a large field of Milli Vannili's out there and most people don't know that anymore.

Seems to me we have a lot of grumpy engineers too.

5K a show? Who can live on that?